Can't wait to hear the crazy defense NetRunner and Farhad2000 come up with for this script of insanity.

BS.

And I can't believe you fell for this shit. You too, mr.stellar. Do you honestly want this to be the truth SO BAD, you won't give the claims even a cursory lookup? Me, not an American, not a constitutional prodigy either, but even for me it only took a couple of glances to determine this is 100% pure bullshit. The very first Google search verified this:

“Page 59: The federal government will have direct, real-time access to all individual bank accounts for electronic funds transfer.”

TRUTH: Page 59 continues the discussion of administrative standards, and authorizes electronic transfers of money within the government. In no way does this provision grant the government access to individual bank accounts. Here's what it actually says:

‘‘The standards under this section shall be developed, adopted and enforced so as to… (C) enable electronic funds transfers, in order to allow automated reconciliation with the related health care payment and remittance advice;"


“Page 195: Officers and employees of Government Healthcare Bureaucracy will have access to ALL American financial and personal records.”

TRUTH: This is a gross overstatement. For the purposes of determining affordability credits for Americans who need financial assistance in purchasing health insurance, employees of the Health Choices Administration will have access to tax information that the federal government already keeps. As is clearly stated on page 196, “Return information… may be used by officers and employees of the Health Choices Administration or such State-based health insurance exchange, as the case may be, only for the purposes of, and to the extent necessary in, establishing and verifying the appropriate amount of any affordability credit described in subtitle C of title II of the America’s Affordable Health Choices Act of 2009 and providing for the repayment of any such credit which was in excess of such appropriate amount.”

More point-by-point rebuttal of this BS: http://pleasecutthecrap.typepad.com/main/2009/07/deconstructing-the-right-wing-lies-health-bill.html#more

Hell, don't just take some nameless hack's word for it, ffs, look it up yourself: http://www.opencongress.org/bill/111-h3200/text

So yeah, blatant *lies.

Adding post to channels (Lies) - requested by EDD.

Very interesting, EDD. Thanks for doing the legwork. Like I said, I haven't read that immense document. I'm sure a lot of these anti-health-bill examples posted above are grossly exaggerated. There are some alarming ones up there, which I've bolded.

Calling this bill 1000+ pages is absurd...have you -seen- the actual pages? There's generally two or three small paragraphs per page, that's it. If it were printed in normal fashion, it would be maybe 250-300 pages.

With that out of the way, let's start taking a look at these claims...

• Page 16: States that if you have insurance at the time of the bill becoming law and change, you will be required to take a similar plan. If that is not available, you will be required to take the gov option!

No it doesn't. It's defining the requirements for a "grandfathered in" healthcare benefit. IOW, it's trying to make sure that companies who currently offer crappy health insurance aren't required to upgrade it, while at the same time preventing those who -do- offer decent insurance from downgrading it below the new minimum coverage standards. It has -nothing- to do with your choice of insurance.

• Page 22: Mandates audits of all employers that self-insure!

Nope, wrong again. It orders a study of the differences and similarities between typical insured and self-insured plans. That's all. A "study" is not even close to the same as "audits of all employers..."

• Page 29: Admission: your health care will be rationed!

Three for three. This page talks about setting out-of-pocket maximums on copays and other cost-sharing mechanisms. Has absolutely -nothing- to do with rationing care.

• Page 30: A government committee will decide what treatments and benefits you get (and, unlike an insurer, there will be no appeals process)

This one's at least -close- to the topic on the page, albeit with some serious deficiencies in accuracy. Let's call it 3.5 wrong out of 4. There will be a committee. The committee -recommends- the covered benefits for the various coverage types (there are three). The committee must allow for public input into these recommendations, which is one hell of a lot more than an insurance company allows. Personally, I'd rather have input up front, than try to get the coverage changed when I'm in the middle of dying without treatment (which is the insurance company's standard operating procedure).

• Page 42: The "Health Choices Commissioner" will decide health benefits for you. You will have no choice. None.

4.5 out of 5 wrong now. This is just a flat-out lie. Nothing on that page has anything to do with who is choosing your benefits.

• Page 50: All non-US citizens, illegal or not, will be provided with free healthcare services.

5.5 wrong for 6. Another flat-out lie. Nothing about this is free, and nothing here says diddly-squat about illegal aliens. It does say that it doesn't change the rules established by "title XXVII of the Public Health Service Act" or state law. So, I suppose that if one of those says we have to provide free healthcare to non-citizens, then we would still need to do so. However, this document just flat does not make that statement.

I mean really...do I need to go on? Every one of the issues on the first 50 pages is bullshit. Where did you find this? Rather obviously, it was on WorldNetDaily or some such wingnut site. Frankly, it took all of 15 minutes to figure out that it was all wrong, too. I can see where that might be too difficult for a conservative, though...thinking is hard, isn't it?

In all fairness, EDD, you aren't the one who interprets the law, governmental officials will be the ones doing that... You say page 59 cannot be interpreted as the government having access to everyones account, and the ability to make automated withdrawals:

"(C) enable electronic funds transfers, in order to allow automated reconciliation with the related health care payment and remittance advice

But what exactly does "automated reconciliation" entail? Are you suggesting this is just an innocent automated bill pay feature ala Wells Fargo. If that is the case why does such an innocuous feature need a LAW to enforce it. A law suggest a crime, and a crime suggests jail time. How can this mean anything other than failing to supply an account for automated fund transfer is a crime punishable by jail or fines?

By the way, its clear you haven't looked at the document or you would have noticed this on page 58:

"(D) enable the real-time (or near real- time) determination of an individual’s financial responsibility at the point of service and, to the extent possible, prior to service, including whether the individual is eligible for a specific service with a specific physician at a specific facility, which may include utilization of a machine-readable health plan beneficiary identification card;"

I think your call of "lies" needs to be retracted...

300 pages, 1000 pages, whatever. If this is the START what will this program look like in ten years?

Honestly after all the lies of the last 8 years you guys really believe what is coming from the GOP and Right wing sphere?

Fail.

^What, you don't? I think cancer patients are aren't hilarious. Fuck you if you don't agree with that conservative assessment.

>> ^Farhad2000:
Honestly after all the lies of the last 8 years you guys really believe what is coming from the GOP and Right wing sphere?
Fail.


The only failure here, is the failure to use a legitimate logical argument in demonstrating your position. Like EDD said...the document is freely available.

Heres another copy: http://www.docs.house.gov/edlabor/AAHCA-BillText-071409.pdf

How can this be B.S. when the source is widely available?

Another verified one which is FUCKED UP and caught my eye:

Claim: anyone without sufficient coverage will be taxed 2.5%

Page 167
(a) TAX IMPOSED.—In the case of any individual who does not meet the requirements of subsection (d) at any time during the taxable year, there is hereby imposed a tax equal to 2.5 percent

Page 171
(d) ACCEPTABLE COVERAGE REQUIREMENT.— (1) IN GENERAL.—The requirements of this subsection are met with respect to any individual for any period if such individual (and each qualifying child of such individual) is covered by acceptable coverage at all times during such period.

I don't know who complied that list but I would bet picking any of them out at random and reading the document would prove them TRUE just as this one. I just don't see how you can make up B.S. when the text is right there for anyone to see.

Because I don't need to. I know what the bill is designed to do, the information on the health care reform need has been circulating around for the last 30 or so years. I have outlined countless times that I don't agree with the Obama plan, but i understand its need to work with the insurance industry that is there and is actively lobbying for support in Washington. Because they don't want to cease to exist overnight. Am not the one trusting clearly what is a email circulation designed to undermine any rational discussion of health care reform. It's not the words. It's what people hear.

The opposition to health care from the right wing and republicans is so predictable, Frank Luntz warned the GOP back in May that health care reform is a issue that is gathering massive public support and outlined the exact kind of opposition that is seen now. With various foot soldiers taking far more extreme positions.

Because any one can see that if Obama's plan succeeds it would solidify a democratic majority for the next decade. The GOP are trying to mount an opposition that is only there to make sure they do not lose more political relevance. They won't succeed, but what they will do is muddle the argument enough that any success or credible path of change is nullified. So they can stay in the game.

Americans are buying it, forgetting the amount of no bidding government contracts that the GOP gave out during the Iraq war. Not really free market non government interventionist of them.

Fiscal conservatism is dead.

"I know what this bill is designed to do"

you sir, are hilarious. I guess the thought never crossed through your head that someone might be taking advantage of this whole "save the humans" movement to I don't know....MAKE SOME MONEY.

Save the humans? Look I don't care am not the one living in the only western developed nation that can't provide essential health care for its citizens while spending the most out of all them. So the system is already making alot of money for someone.

What you thought the people opposing it also aren't out to make some money by making sure the private health insurance industry continues to deny claims? Some of the are salivating at the thought of covering more people so they can reap more money and continue their system of denying health care.

You think there wasn't a reason Bush wanted to privatize Social Security? Who would benefit from that? Investment firms. That failed. Think of what all that government credit would have meant in the housing bubble that occurred.

You missed the most disturbing one:

Page 3/11: Government will shut down VideoSift.com to ensure citizens spend more time outside again

Seriously? "• Page 63: Cancer patients will become hilarious." I am really disappointed with you all. Fuck.

• Page 132: All citizens will be required to implant an RFID chip

^ Has that been refuted? That's the scariest one of all.

>> ^EndAll:
• Page 132: All citizens will be required to implant an RFID chip
^ Has that been refuted? That's the scariest one of all.


Page 666: Sarcasm is punishable by enrollment in the Gov't health plan

>> ^EndAll:
• Page 132: All citizens will be required to implant an RFID chip
^ Has that been refuted? That's the scariest one of all.


• Page 428: Government mandates AIDS testing on toes and testicles.

Page 1000: PSYCH!

*demote

Page 1017: It is now a federal offense to lie or spin the truth on a national news outlet.

Page 6432: Page 6521 is a shithead.